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More airlines make large passengers buy two seats

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More airlines make large passengers buy two seats

Posted by David Landsel, Airfarewatchdog.com on Friday, January 29, 2010

By David Landsel

Airfarewatchdog.com

You’re paying to check your belongings, so why should other people’s excess baggage get a free ride?

That’s the question being asked by a growing number of travelers. As airlines look for new ways to boost revenue, fees for checked bags are on the rise; so is scrutiny of overweight customers whose baggage is built in.

It’s a touchy subject, Airfarewatchdog.com has found, and one that airlines have been happy to avoid discussing, where possible. As late as 2008, United Airlines wouldn’t even address the matter with us.

But an outcry among passengers, tired of their seatmates taking up more than their fair share of jealously-guarded seat space, is said to have played a role in the airlines’ new rules for transporting “customers of size.” Where a terse “we have no policy” was once the standard response, United adopted new regulations in 2009. Customers who were unable to confine themselves to one seat would be required to buy a second, should the crew be unable to reseat them.

It’s a policy that’s becoming increasingly commonplace.

To many, the idea seems simple enough – if you can’t fit into one seat, you should probably consider buying two.

It’s not simple at all. Canada’s government takes a dim view of the matter. In late 2008, the country’s Supreme Court upheld a ruling that prohibited airlines from charging the disabled or “obese” for a second seat, affecting Canadian flyers Air Canada and WestJet.  

Here in the United States, some airlines with upfront policies have spent their fair share of time in the courts. Southwest has long been famously transparent about its second seat rule, the one that United and many other airlines have emulated. The company has been sued more than once by disgruntled passengers.

“On the lawsuits, all have ruled on the side of Southwest,” spokesperson Whitney Eichinger points out.

Southwest’s policy is that those who cannot fit in one seat must buy two.  

 “If the flight goes out with empty seats, Southwest will refund the cost of the additional seat,” Eichinger said.

Other airlines have had their share of legal trouble in this area.  

In the past, Air France warned passengers with what they referred to as “high body mass” not to expect to be seated if they have not purchased an extra seat. This is a warning that many airlines, even those who officially have tried to downplay any official policy, have long given to travelers.

Some travelers, however, don’t see the need. That, or the airline and the passenger disagree over what constitutes “need.” An Air France passenger traveling from New Delhi to Paris in 2006 sitting in a single seat was stopped by employees, who wrapped packing tape around him in public to prove that he was too fat. Citing humiliation, he sued, and won.

At the time, the airline had a program in place that offered passengers a second seat at a 25 percent discount, tax-free. It was a move that the airline had hoped would encourage customers to make arrangements in advance.

Last week, Air France made an update to the policy, bringing it more in line with Southwest’s policy, which has been around for decades. According to Air France spokesperson Karen Gillo, the second seat purchase is still optional. Now, however, the cost will be reimbursed if the flight is not fully booked.  

“It’s a way to encourage individuals to pre-plan to ensure their own comfort and safety; it allows them to travel with less stress,” she said.

Gillo stated that “for the mass majority of the cases, the flights aren’t fully booked” and passengers will be reimbursed.

Air France isn’t the only one making tweaks these days. JetBlue spokesman Mateo Lleras said the airline is currently working to refine its policy.

Currently, Lleras said, the airline does its best to accommodate customers free of charge. It will charge if it has to, but says that it approaches the matter on a “case by case basis.”

“We understand this is a sensitive issue,” he said. “Every time we can accommodate a customer we will.”


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I asked Delta to let me by three seats for 2 years ago. All I asked is for me to get the benefit in my frequent flyer status and medalion status. If they need the seats, they could upgrade my wife and me to first class. This seemed like a logical step. They refused. Now you want to know why they went bankrupt. They were carrying the same weight as well as getting 50 per cent more money. And if they overbooked, they made even more money.
by heavyhitter on Friday, February 05, 2010
Charging for luggage is a lot of nerve. I am very unhappy with what airlines have stripped away from services.Big people should have large seats put aside for them. They are paying the same amount for a ticket as anyone else. Put in larger seats for large people. Next you will pick on people with "blue eyes".
by Silverfox 1600 on Wednesday, February 03, 2010
I'm not wide, I'm unusually tall and almost have yet to find a plance I can actually stand up in. I just know the airlines will soon try charging me for an extra seat because I don't fit it one, but since my problem is not width, are they going to remove the seat in front of me so I can stretch out?
by Leafs on Monday, February 01, 2010
Airlines/airplane designers should stop cheating us on our seating space. All they care about is shoving as many fares as they can onto a plane. They weren't thinking about our comfort when they redesigned the seating. Not really. This is never an issue before.
by Obs on Monday, February 01, 2010
I'm a larger person and I hate it when I am judged by ignorant looks from the thinner fliers. I fly occassionally and dread it everytime! I try my hardest not to get into anyone's personal space, so much so that I am uncomfortable the whole flight. How about men that are naturally larger because of their build? Nothing to do with being overweight. How about the handicapped? STOP and observe... haven't you noticed that seats are smaller than they were say ten years ago??? It's not because of my size either!!! So don't even go there. Even first class is shrinking. What the hell! Let's just keep paying more and more money, blame everyone else, and not notice the subtleties. Wake up people! Everything is shrinking; we are expected to pay more; and blame is pointed in the wrong direction. Everyday we get less and pay more for it! And another thing, those that complain about crying babies, loud talkers, smelly body odor, we are all in a public place. Have you become that much of a snob that you everyone else is beneathe you? If so, learn to fly your own plane OR get over it!
by FedUP on Monday, February 01, 2010
While they are worrying about insulting the "high body mass" , they need to think about the customers that paid for 1 seat and only get 1/2. I've had to sit next to someone on a sold out flight that needed 2 seats and the flight was hell. I felt as if i was being crushed. The space is already tight, with an over sized person, the space is now no longer possible.Maybe there should b a special seating area and just charge more for that seat. There is special parking in the parking lots for the handicapped
by my seat on Monday, February 01, 2010
I think tickets should be sold based on weight - 100 lbs (or so). When you check in, you stand on a scale, like a cattle scale, and get weighed with your luggage. Then everyone pays a per pound charge for anything over the base weight. Families could juke their children and luggage around to their benefit, if the kids are underweight. That would eliminate the big carry on hassle, and would be fair. Politically incorrect, though I think it would help the "obesity crisis". It is really annoying to sit next to an overweight person when they are in my space, I'd be a lot happier knowing they paid their fair share. My husband is one of the overweight - he flies a lot. I wish he had to pay a per pound charge, it would be a good incentive. Thanks for watching!
by ohfortheloveofgod on Sunday, January 31, 2010
I am an overweight person and I fly occasionally. I think being charged more just because I'm bit bigger than the next person is unreasonable. I put up with kids screaming, purfume that would suffocate a herd of buffalo and I pay the same as them. There is not charge for a baby that often is a pain to people within several rows. But because some ignorant folks believe because they are skinny....they should be priviledged. If they want nicer accommodations....they can go to first class. How bout a note from my doctor?
by enyrhtak on Sunday, January 31, 2010
Before we start getting in an uproar about body comparisons, men and women travelers etc, isn't it fair to have the actual chair/area evaluated and attach a weight limit to it? For example, if you are 6 foot and under and weigh over 350 pounds, you will most likely affect the flying space of others significantly so buy two seats period. The airlines can easily assess the weight/height limitations to one given space. I mean how hard can that be? I, myself, had to sit by a very overweight person on an international flight. I had half a seat literally to my name. Frankly, I am surprised the airlines have not done anything about this issue sooner. There are no drawbacks other than possibly making more money and creating better conditions for travelers, including the overweight individual (s).
by RealSimple on Saturday, January 30, 2010
Since people have to be politically correct about every other race, nationality and disability, let's pick on the fat folks. Gotta have someone to kick around to make yourself feel better.
by Melissa M. on Saturday, January 30, 2010
CHARGE AWAY AIRLINES. I have been a victim of overweight passangers far too many times. The worst is getting a large woman next to me knitting. For those of you who disagree. Let me know. If we ever fly on the same flight, the person can swap places with a regular-sized person sitting next to you!
by badnews001 on Saturday, January 30, 2010
if i'm traveling for 4 months and try to keep my luggage weight to 50 lbs so i don't have to pay extra fees it really bothers me (5'2" 125lbs) when i have a middle seat and am squished between two rather large folks who don't have to pay a cent more for their "extra" baggage. let's be fair - either charge them or let people who are traveling for extended periods of time have a break on the bag weight allowance. i mean let's be fair.
by jean on Saturday, January 30, 2010
If an average size woman weighs say 140 pounds and an average size man weighs 200 pounds, I suppose men should pay higher fares than women because they have a heavier weight to carry. Their extra weight is equivalent to an overweight suitcase. Of course that's ridiculous. It's also ridiculous to charge very large people for two seats when there are extra seats available for free. The airline who advertises in a manner that welcomes large people without insulting them will do very well. There are very many large Americans who will appreciate and reward such an airline. When I get on a plane all I want is to arrive safely. If a large person overflows a little into my seat, I can live with that as long as he's clean. I grew up in a home with several overweight people who didn't seem to eat much more than everyone else. They were treated like dirt and insulted from the time they were young children and all their lives. I won't contribute to making their lives more miserable by being obnoxious over something that's really not important. The only time I was sitting near a person so large that it was impossible for me to sit, I was reseated in first class.
by tourmalinequeen on Friday, January 29, 2010
This is the collision of people's demand for low fares with the reality of the tighter spacing required to accommodate it. The large people are caught in the middle. That said, I don't want someone spilling over into MY seat. It seems like a reasonable approach. As to the FAA mandating airline policy, the government may be the only organization around that could make more of a mess of it than we already have. I like the idea of the total package scale though, even though it doesn't address the large guy in the seat next to you.
by beenthere on Friday, January 29, 2010
I concur with Southwest's policy and believe all airlines should have such a policy. I have an issue with having the middle set between to people of excess mass. Both took a portion of my seat with the result I ended up standing near the restrooms. Today, you are not allowed to stand there so you just have to suffer. If that is the case, then the individual who is having his portion of their seat invaded by a person of excess mass should have their ticket refunded if the airline cannot move the person of excess mass to another location of two seats. I once flew from Sydney to Hawaii standing up because of a husband wife refused to sit side by side but insisted I had to listen to their communication the whole trip. There were no empty seats on the flight. Today I would ensure a divorce lawyer would meet them at the end of the flight.
by Twin on Friday, January 29, 2010
I agree with Gajitman. I am overweight and am working on losing it .. It is a long hard battle. I have been on planes stuck next to a person that had the world worst breath and wanted to "chat", have also sat in back of a person that took their shoes off to allow EVERYBODy onboard to have an equal opportunity to smell his feet.. They are not charged extra for stinking. The average airline seat is 17 inches wide. That is INSANE.
by wolfsong on Friday, January 29, 2010
Very good question from Chemical_Echo, and I have a suggestion for that, too. Each airline would of course have their own pay rate, which is published on their websites, etc. This would be handled in 2 steps: 1. Each airline would establish what their minimum passage price would be. There would have to be some kind of "no one can fly for less than this on our airline to this destination" minimum, just like UPS\FedEx\USPS does. For simplicity, let's mark this @ $50. When you shop for your trip, you will pay that amount at time of booking. This will reserve your passage on that flight segment[s], guarantee you a standard seat in the seat class you purchased, and allow for the same security checks, etc. that are done for Homeland Security, etc. 2. On flight day, you and everything you're bringing show up together at the terminal. You will all be weighed together, but only 1 person on the scale at a time. The attendant [could be a person, could be a kiosk] spits out your total weight and price and you immediately pay your total for you and your luggage. No extra fees for how many bags you bring. If you can get it on the scale with you, you are allowed to bring it, because you're paying for every pound. For 1st class passengers, who get enhanced services [and appropriately, better seating arrangements], their scale would start higher than coach, and the process would work exactly the same at the terminal. Every article you bring [purse, backpack, garment bag, jumbo suitcase, plastic tub] gets tagged when you pay your weight allowance. If your carry-ons exceed the size allowed for that airplane, it will become checked right there, not at the gate. Any oversized bags that slip through security will be gate-checked [as they are now] & you will pay an inconvenience\stupid penalty for not following the rules. So, I pay my $50 when I book, then I pay the balance when I travel. The airlines will also have to be forced under FAA rules to guarantee every bag you bring will travel on your flight, or they have to refund some of the weight surchage back to you, for your inconvenience. Now, to answer the question of "how do I know in advance what my total cost might be?" the airlines will have to provide webtools to provide the passenger with some bracketed guidelines of cost expectation. They would provide a form that the passenger can fill in at anytime, to provide their own weight, plus estimated weight of their cargo. Very similar to how you now use the shipping companies to guess what your cost will be for a given package. This system would not require a rocket scientist to figure out "how much" for a flight. The tools are easy, it's just the responsibility of the airline to make it user-friendly to fly with them, instead of their competitor. It also seems to me that someplace like Expedia, or Orbitz would eat this up, because they could make their own tools to help you determine the price difference between airlines for a given flight. The system we have now is just too archaic and obsolete. It no longer meshes with modern society and needs to be replaced. I think it would also help the airlines figure out how to operate at break-even or better. God knows they need the help.
by StartingMyOwnAirline on Friday, January 29, 2010
I was bumped by Sprint Airlines for being 2 lbs. over the luggage limit. I weigh 109 lbs, and I observed people who appeared to be at least twice my weight. Was that fair? Hell no. It was especially annoying to have sit next to a guy whose girth took up have my seat and made the flight tremendously uncomfortable.
by Sunshine on Friday, January 29, 2010
In response to StartingMyOwnAirline, If prices were set by total mass, how could anyone buy tickets early? Everyone would have to purchase their tickets the day of travel. You can't buy a ticket 6 months in advance and know how much you're going to way the day of your flight, along with the mass of everything you plan on taking. There's a reason cargo companies charge by mass. It's because you can weigh it right before shipping and that's it. Sure, charging you for your ticket based on your total mass might be the fair way, but it makes no sense.
by chemical_echo on Friday, January 29, 2010
So if you are thin, then you should be charged less. Dumb logic to charge obese people more if you don't compensate smaller people.
by jrhammer on Friday, January 29, 2010
Why not just do what theme parks do with respect to larger guests fitting on roller coasters. Have a test seat the same as the seats on the plane at the counter and have them sit in it. If they're too big for one seat they'll have to pay for a second seat.
by chemical_echo on Friday, January 29, 2010
It all comes down to good manners and awareness of others. Large people are - or at least should be - aware of their size. If they are not, then they are just plain stupid. If, in the case of morbidly obese people, they ignore this problem by not caring for their health, perhaps they should be finding another way to travel. They got themselves into that body and they should take responsibility for their actions. So, big people, stop complaining and take the train!!!!!!
by irishguy on Friday, January 29, 2010
This decision should NOT be left to the airlines to make. This should be regulated by the FAA. The airlines [with 1 notable exception] can't even operate at a profit, despite the continual increases in fees for this, and for that. This is where a Passenger Bill of Rights would come into play. Make the airlines all use the same seat per class, mandated and approved by the FAA. Then each passenger will pay for passage on a pricing scale controlled by each airline. You and every piece of luggage you need to travel with, be it checked or carried on, will be weighed all together, and your price will result from that. If I want to bring 1,000 lbs. of crap with me on a trip, then I should have to pay for every pound [including me] the airline has to transport. Likewise, if my 3-year old son and all of his luggage only weigh 60 lbs. then that's what we should be charged for. The airlines are in the same line of work as UPS and FedEx, except their cargo is also human, in addition to just stuff. So if you charge by the pound for the passenger and their stuff, then only allow X number of people on the flight, based on how many comfortable seats that fit inside, you're done. If you can't figure out how to do that and make a profit, sell your airplanes and do something else. That means you're not smart enough to be successful in that line of work.
by StartingMyOwnAirline on Friday, January 29, 2010
I fit in one seat, but I'm chunky. The airlines keep reducing the seating space. Maybe there should be some standardization -- or maybe I could be out of luck on one of my future flights.
by BigLady on Friday, January 29, 2010
What would be considered fat? Would we follow the equation to determine obesity? According to what scale (luggage scales at airports aren't exactly dependably accurate). Weight depends on so many different things - bone structure, height, males or female. It would be difficult to come up with a fair policy, and not just someones opinion of what is fat. That said, those who are overweight-obese are not in a "protected class" in terms of making discrimination illegal, so airlines can do whatever they want, with only the reaction of customers to guide them.
by Kristina on Friday, January 29, 2010
Just wondering why the taxes and fees are so much higher on Southwest than other airlines, such as Alaska. When trying to compare the costs (with costs of luggage, etc.) I notice that Southwest's additional fees are almost twice that of Alaska for the same flight destination..i.e. Seattle to Orange County. Alaska was $198 plus $32 for fees and Southwest was $207 with $58 for fees. I find that true for most flight comparisons with Southwest. Granted, adding the luggage fees, SW wins, but it is curious why the differece. Any ideas?
by toomanyshoes on Friday, January 29, 2010
I have to agree with Autumnfire's point about shoulder width. That has little to do with weight. The 2 real issues are establishing what "normal" or "average" is, both in size and weight, but separately. And you need to arrive at these separately for each gender. Women, on average, are smaller in every direction that an airline measures, than a man. Therefore, a lot more men could be penalized if they're measured in the same group as women. You also need to establish a scaled table that states how much "penalty" you would have to pay, based on how much heavier you are than the established max. Of course, it will be almost impossible to come up with a satisfactory way to weigh all passengers without getting sued. Any fair system would have to accommodate for passengers larger than average, but not over the weight limit, AND heavier passengers who do not exceed the size limits. They're not always the same. I am obese, and would pay an additional amount [not a full seat price] to compensate for the extra fuel required to move the "extra" weight. However, unless the airline is providing me a seat sized for my service level, I will not pay 1 dime more than the anorexic smoker who's stinking up the cabin from their last "break" in the terminal. Coach seats on almost every airline are horribly mismatched to the travelling public today. You give me a decent seat, and I'll pay my fair share for size or weight over the average.
by Gajitman on Friday, January 29, 2010
Too many "what if's". What about people who are traveling with a child who only takes up half a seat? They buy two seats, they take up two seats. They're not bothering anyone else. What about people who aren't overweight who take up extra space...arm cast, leg cast,etc? Will they be forced to buy two seats, too? How about that drunk who's passed out and is now lopping over into my seat, snoring? What about the guy who's wheelchair bound or the one with movement disorders? How about pregnant women? How about a woman with big hair? The body builder? If the policy is that a passenger can't stay confined to their little space, then it has to be for everyone, not just overweight people. Sorry, it's flat out discrimination and if this is a problem, the airlines need to rethink their seat configuration. The seats are getting smaller and the passengers' larger.
by zzzzz78759 on Friday, January 29, 2010
I just returned from vegas via Boston, I was forced to sit in a 3 row seat with a real porker, most uncomfortable flight ever, Hell yes theshould pay for two seats, but then will the airlines still try to fill that seat or will fatty gripe? They should have paid me to be forced to sit near that hogjowl.
by allfire on Friday, January 29, 2010
When some coach fares are so reasonable compared to first/business class, I would much rather buy the middle seat in a 3-across row so me and my husband can have some "wiggle" and carry-on room on long flights. But how do you make sure your extra seat stays assigned next to you? And, in who's name do you book the extra seat? Will an airline book two seats in the same traveler's name with present security requirements? Just making sure seats cannot be reclined would help a lot and save lots of aggravation for everyone.
by Nancy on Friday, January 29, 2010
I am a smaller than average person (130lbs - 5'7") and I feel cramped in airline seats. That said, even though tiny airline seats are uncomfortable and cause me pain from a knee injury, airlines don't offer me a larger space to be more comfortable. You're paying for space. In the case of small children, there's a minimum space (ie, one seat) required per person. Don't penalize me by sitting on my lap if you can't fit into your seat. Either buy two seats or travel first class where the seats are bigger. Or, maybe when we check in we should all stand on the scale next to our bags to determine if weight surcharges (rather than extra baggage charges) apply.
by Flyer on Friday, January 29, 2010
Yes they should have to pay for two if they take up the room of two
by newflyer on Friday, January 29, 2010
Hmmmm, the airlines care about people who are overweight and take up extra room, but don't care that their seats lean so far back that a average to small person is smashed behind some selfish jerk. I don't believe they care at all - I think they want the money; I've flown enough to know customers be damned is the airline's attitude.
by lovingparent on Friday, January 29, 2010
What about people (mostly men) whose shoulders are so broad that they overlap into the back of my seat and cause me to have to scrunch in my shoulders? I already have a neck/shoulder problem and this makes it much worse. Since it's not necessarily overweight individuals whose shoulders hang over my seat, I'm blaming airlines for choosing profit over ergonomics.
by Autumnfire on Friday, January 29, 2010
I flew Air France in 2009 in tourist class with a man beside me in the window seat who clearly weighed close to 350 pounds. Needless to say he took up his seat and more than half of mine -- he had to raise the armrest in get in. He was sweating profusely and jiggled nervously for the entire 8 hour trip - crew staff could not move him or me and Air France would not comment or respond to my letters upon landing in Paris. Never to fly Air France again. WE CAN'T DISCRIMINATE AGAINST OVER SIZED PASSENGERS, BUT THEY DON'T MIND TAKING MY FULL FARE FOR LESS THAN HALF A SEAT!!!
by disgruntled passenger on Friday, January 29, 2010
I am one of those people considered obese by the airlines, and am conflicted about the latest airline rule changes re this issue. I have severe arthritis, which is how I became fat, but the airline has no way of knowing that it isn't always the fault of the obese person. HOWEVER, I do purchase an extra seat when I travel on any airline but Jet Blue (probably Virgin Air would be okay, too), because I don't think "normal-size people should have to be denied part of the already narrow seat they have paid for. The airlines themselves have created this issue, by cramming in as many seats as IN-humanly possible, in a race for increased revenues. So part of me feels the airline should lump it, part of me feels sorry for the regular-size people and part of me feels just as badly for those like myself, who either have to pay up or be held in humiliating scutiny. What is the answer??
by ronay55 on Friday, January 29, 2010
Common Sense: If you take up 2 seats, pay for 2 seats. Should have been done long ago. Fat is unhealthy and should be penalized.
by Fair is Fair on Friday, January 29, 2010
Bottom line, build bigger seats, or, combine a certain number of larger seats with standard seats, to accomodate larger size passengers. Society is starting to lose their taste for how people should be treated.
by justtellit on Friday, January 29, 2010
Why not just book flights for persons overweight, what would be 200 lbs. and up, let all the skinny folk ride together and all the fat folk ride together. Misery loves company
by justtellit on Friday, January 29, 2010
Forcing overweight people to purchase two seats in order to fly is discrimination, plain and simple. I agree with the person who has already made the point that if the companies build the seats unrealistically small for the general population, the fault lies there, not with their customers. What's next, an overweight person will have to buy two tickets to go to a concert, a football game or his/her child's graduation ceremony????
by SeMINNoleFan on Friday, January 29, 2010
This issue bugs me. I am not that large (though despite dieting and feverish exercise, I'm well on my way). But, the air traveler is purchasing transit, not a specific seat. My two little girls easily could fit into one seat, yet they pay full fare - not half fare because they are, combined, the size of an average adult. They are paying for transit, not for the seat they occupy. Why do the airlines get a pass on ADA compliance? The airlines should have over-sized coach seats for over-sized people, just as stadiums have wheelchair seats for disabled people in wheelchairs. If no oversize person books a particular flight, then the airline can sell the oversize seat as a premium seat, again just as stadiums sell a foldable chair in an unsold wheelchair space.
by Not That Big (Yet Anyway) on Friday, January 29, 2010
I am small but have back trouble, so need to be able to move around and put my shoulders back against the seat in order to prevent back pain. If someone encroaches on my seat, then I suffer in multiple ways - AND I am not getting what I paid for. If airlines won't charge obese people for more than one seat, they should refund some money to those who don't get what they paid for. That might get them to change their policies.
by fairisfair on Friday, January 29, 2010
I am petite and small and more than once I have been stuck next to obese passengers. Personally, I think the airline ticket people do this purposely so now I always book my seats online. Its nasty to sit next to someone who overflows and usually they sweat a lot. It sucks when their sweat is on your shoulder and you are taking up less than one seat and they still get u.
by skinnychick on Friday, January 29, 2010
it's time airlines got busy & built more realistic seats in their jets. The current ones have been around since the 30's-when everyone was a size 6.
by obese on Friday, January 29, 2010
i am much more offended when the person sitting next to me has an "infant" sitting in his/her lap than i am when the person is large and crossing over into my space. when seated next to an "infant in arms", the kid always ends up spread across its parent and me...crawling all over the row.
by saney on Friday, January 29, 2010
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