Should obese passengers be required to buy an extra seat?
Airfarewatchblog
Posted by David Landsel on Friday, August 1, 2008
Should "customers of size" pay for their excess baggage?
You're paying more to travel, and not just for your plane ticket. Every pound counts as the number of carriers charging for all checked luggage racks up. So it stands to reason that the public might be wondering why the airlines don't charge passengers with significant overages of a more, uh, personal nature.
Southwest calls them "customers of size." Medical professionals would use the term obese. Bloggers and message board habitués use names that are a lot less polite.
Many people assume that fat people are getting a free ride. But are they? Nearly all airlines keep it very quiet, but many have policies – informal or formal – in place to make sure that passengers of size carry their own weight.
It's a tricky business. In some corners – Canada, for instance -- it just got trickier. A winter ruling barred Canadian airlines from discriminating against "clinically obese" customers. Southwest was successfully sued by a passenger who was told she needed to purchase a second seat after she had already boarded – too late, the ruling found. An ample Air France passenger won a case after citing humiliation at the hands of staff who wrapped packing tape around him in public to prove that he was too fat to sit one seat, forcing him to purchase another.
Here's the funny part about those lawsuits. At the time, both Southwest and Air France had actual policies in place for dealing with overweight passengers. Southwest's policy has been around for years. It states that if staff determine that the passenger will not fit in one seat, the passenger must purchase a second, a cost which will be reimbursed if the flight is not full.
Air France's policy was more loose, urging passengers who knew that not having an empty seat next to them would be a problem, to handle it on their own in advance. (As of this writing, Air France passengers "with a high body mass" are warned that if they do not purchase an extra seat their own, they may not be allowed to board.) In the end, both airlines were punished for being up front with their customers, even if the execution of the policy perhaps needed work. This is, after all, a terrifically sensitive matter.
Perhaps that is why the topic, with many airlines, tends to be something along the lines of That Which We Don't Speak Of. Ask a major carrier like United Airlines what rules they have in place for dealing with the situation, and you'll hear a pregnant pause (followed by a terse "we have no policy.")
American Airlines is more forthcoming, but hastens to emphasize that it does in no way require its passengers to purchase two seats. Spokesman Tim Wagner does say that passengers whose weight exceeds 250 lbs. should know that there are "possible limitations that could result in American not being able to accommodate them." He also states that the airline urges passengers to "recognize ahead of time that they may need to purchase two seats." He also cites the FAA regulation that all airlines adhere to – if you can't snap the seatbelt (after the extension is added, that is) you can't fly.
JetBlue doesn't mind taking a more straightforward stance. Spokesperson Alison Eshelman says that their policy "requires" larger customers who need an additional seat for their own comfort to buy one in advance. If they do not, and the crew cannot accommodate them, they will be required to buy the seat in any case, with no refunds. (However, Eshelman notes correctly that JetBlue does offer its passengers a little more wiggle room with their larger-than-average seat width on board the airline's A320 aircraft.)
But what of the growing awareness among the traveling public that it costs the airline more to transport an obese passenger than a passenger of average weight?
Those hoping for any type of joy in that department should sit on their hands. (See: Lawsuits.) Delta's Susan Elliott states clearly that the airline "has no plans to implement any policy that discriminates against any of our passengers." Translation: This is one hot potato ain't nobody going to touch.
DOES SIZE MATTER?
Here's a look at how different airlines deal with the "customer of size."
SOUTHWEST
Passengers should plan on purchasing an extra seat or risk being asked to do so at the airport by staff. If the flight is not sold out, the passenger may claim a refund.
AMERICAN
Airline states that passengers over 250 lbs. should recognize that there may be limitations to the service that the airline can provide, however, it does not require that you purchase an extra seat automatically.
UNITED
No policy whatsoever.
MIDWEST AIRLINES
Like Southwest, passengers are encouraged to know their needs in advance. If staff determine that two seats are required, the seat will be sold at the lowest possible fare, with a refund available if there is one or more open seats on the flight.
AIR FRANCE
Passengers with "high body mass" may receive a 25 percent discount on an extra seat, knowing that if it chooses to not buy the seat, it may risk not being able to fly.
JET BLUE
You are required to buy a second seat, and there are no refunds.
DELTA
The airline "works to accommodate" passengers with special needs. Upon request and availability, it will try to make sure the next seat is unoccupied. However, if the plane is full, you will most likely be asked to leave the flight and buy a second seat on the next available flight. (You can actually count on this being a fairly typical practice on most airlines.)
Take our poll: Should clinically obese passengers be required to buy an extra seat? (It's the fifth question down, but feel free to vote on the questions 1-4 too!)
And please tell us what you think about this, er, weighty matter.
Post a Comment
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If my extra-weight bag is going to cost, then your extra-weight body should too! Those of us that work diligently to stay small enough to fit into a standard seat do not appreciate wide-body encroachment into the space we paid for! Also, if a seatbelt extension is required, the airlines should charge for it (just like they charge for everything else).
Gail - Horses are shipped only on cargo aircraft with special stalls and other equipment. People-carrying airlines don't allow large critters to share the cabin with people. The aircraft is either a people-carrier or it's not. If the FAA would allow airline-style flying on cargo aircraft, perhaps that would work for the wide-bodies. Until they do (or other accommodations are made) the 2-seat alternative is the only option.
For the politically correct and sensitive ones: When a wide-body boards, do you offer to trade seats with their seat mates and sit next to them? If you don't mind sitting next to them, and I do, we should trade seats and everyone will be happy.
I see both sides, but as a somewhat short woman, I have been pushed and had my space invaded by younger people of both sexes and by men who are [in general] larger. Some of these people were just rude and believed their right to space was greater than mine, but many - not fat people take up more than one economy seat. So should broad shouldered people and all others who overflow the seat also be charged?
The women I spoke with stated " We do not charge passagers who are taller or wider extra fees or require them to pay for an extra seat. (Other airline policys requiring removal the plane or extra fees) Are just cruel. " I t should be noted that passagers are not usually crammed into planes on this airline and the middle seat is often open for elbow room.
-As a note: conversation happened on August 2 2008
Certainly they didn't get in that condition without a clue - so, in keeping with hopefully persons not in denial, they should be allowed/required to purchase the seat next to them, unless the plane is not full.
If Midwest ends up not surviving, I suspect we simply won't fly.
Someplace on this earth today, a mother will watch her child die from a simple disease, or lack of food or clean water. Now there is something to be upset about.
Perhaps it is not the person next to you. Maybe you are just uncomfortable because you have to be in your own shallow company.
Airlines sell seats based on volume of the seat, not the weight of the passenger, otherwise my 4 year old daughter would fly (nearly) free. Since she takes a seat, she is charged. However, if you require more than one seat, you should be charged for more than one seat. Since you cannot purchase a fraction of a second seat - two seats. Thats how it has to work. The alternative is to have a scale in the ticketing area and charge by the pound...think a lot of flights are late now?
Lastly, I agree that "people of size" have the right to not be discriminated against. However, if you need more than one seat, that is fact, not discrimination. Refusing a blind person a driver's license is not discrimination, merely facing reality.
I think that all larger persons should be required to purchase a second seat say at 50% of the 1st ticketed price. It is just not fare to us smaller folks to have our already limited space taken up by another body encroaching our space.
I am about 5'7", female, and about 300lbs. I work hard to lose weight, but I have a variety of health problems that make it extremely difficult.
With your standard 16"-17" wide airline seat, I can get the standard seatbelt, *without an extender*, fastened, but I am "hippy" and have a little trouble getting the armrest all the way down. (It's usually all the way down except for an inch.) I overflow maybe 2 inches to the side, and I go out of my way to scoot to the side and try to make my seatmates comfortable.
But I've been thin in past, and spent multiple flights hunched over & leaned forward due to large flyers-- not necessarily fat, but large.
I can see requiring people who need a seatbelt extender or are clearly far too large to buy an extra seat. God forbid I ever get that big, but if I do, I will accept the fact I need more room.
But the seats have shrunk, and people have gotten larger-- not just fatter, but larger.
Personally, I've always gone by the rule that if the seatbelt fits around me, then the seat should fit under me. But I've asked to move and gotten nasty comments right and left.
There is no one solution--the very large need to be prepared to pay for extra room, but the airlines need to give people a little more room in general. And everyone needs to be more understanding-- larger folks need to realize what an incovienence and discomfort they're causing other passengers, and do their best to make amends, but smaller passengers need to realise thaty is frequently very difficult to lose extra weight, and being nasty and rude isn't going to magically make us shrink. Anymore, I almost automatically apologise to anyone who has to sit next to me.
Ultimately, though, I favor my "standard" indicator, as I said above:
If the non-extended seatbelt fits around me then the seat should dang well fit under me.
And it's not until after these relatives reached clinical obesity size that they claimed the reason they couldn't lose weight NOW is because exercising hurts their knees. Guess they're grateful they can still exercise their elbows and wrists, all day long. Oh, and their jaws, too.
I'm not an obese traveler, but am a frequent one--I have well over a million miles on one airline, and close to it on several others, and have been seated next to what seems like far more than my share of them. The worst time, which was 30 years ago but which I'll never forget, involved a middle seat between two sweaty obese people, each leaning toward me in their seats, on a Red Eye from LA to NYC. Oh my God, sometimes I still relive that interminable night.
I say this to the faces of obese family members and I'll say it here: I will NOT permit someone obese to raise the armrest in order to fit into a seat; that armrest is for MY convenience. I do NOT enjoy the odor that the obese folks frequently emit. I understand it is hard to keep lots of perspiration (& smelly bacteria) from accumulating in the fat folds, and I understand that you wish you didn't HAVE an odor problem--but you do, and your wishing otherwise doesn't mean I want to sit one inch away from you--for hours. I also find that, every time an obese seatmate has to swivel in any direction (like reaching forward to lower a tray or get a magazine, or turning to look out the window), a tremendous amount of grunting & groaning seems to take place, and that is extremely annoying.
Yes, I know those of you who are clinically obese would rather not have this problem . And, for SOME of you, it truly is not your fault (altho that's a minority, based on my own family). However, that does NOT mean I should get squished into my seat, forego what tiny amount of personal space I have in coach anyway, and be prisoner to your sounds and smells.
Very tall people, like pro basketball players, have to either sit in the bulkhead or buy a first class ticket to give them enough room for their legs--their vertical space. I don't see any reason why people who need extra horizontal space shouldn't have to buy two tickets, or a business or first class ticket in a larger area where the seats aren't attached to each other.
I'm suffering enough with what it costs to travel.
Humiliation doesn't serve anyone but the people who get off on watching it happen.
Another thought: I think an airlines which caterd to the needs of bigger folk would get loyal business from them. SO let the market adapt.
I have friends that are "people of size". One of them literally can't help it much. She eats less than me and works out, but her whole family is overweight and the doctors think there is something with their metabolism that won't allow them to be very slim. I couldn't imagine telling her, "no, you may not fly unless you purchase another seat". The airlines don't tell me I can't fly because I am at risk for having an asthma attack in the air. It's not like she can do much more to control it.
I think that people of size should NOT infringe. However, I think they should just be given two seats. They paid just like I did. I think at least they should be offered a less populated flight where they will not have to pay first. Perhaps it is unrealistic, but I think it would be more humane.
EVERYONE AND THEIR BAGS should be weighed together at the airport. Why should I pay for luggage when these fat ones, who weigh two and three times as much as me get a free lunch.
"larger" person needs to pay their fair share to fly. If there is a surcharge for the weight of baggage, there should be a surcharge for the weight of "oversized" people. It's time that we hold the airline accountable for putting seats in the plane to accommodate the size of the individual.
Part of the ticketing process should be to identify excessive size so that the airline can accommodate these individuals and let them make an "informed" decision as to whether to pay their fair share or not fly.
For this discussion, I believe that all OVERWEIGHT people should be considered to be obese!
I would also like to know where people are getting the information that the seats are getting smaller. I've been a frequent flier for over 15 years and the seats haven't magically shrunk for me. Perhaps it's not the seats that shrink, but rather your size has expanded. Since I know that many of the "fat activists" out there refuse to step on a scale.
I don't check any bags, ever, so they can charge all they want. I don't care. I don't trust airlines to get my things to the destination, so I mail everything ahead of time. Never had a problem. My carry-on, which is smaller than some women's purses, contains only a change of clothing and essentials should I arrive to my destination before my parcel does. It also doubles as my purse.
What I dislike most about flying are the screaming babies. If only they made kiddie Klonopin.
I think an excellent solution would be for the airlines to provide (for a fee of course!) passengers with a long, thin piece of strong material that would fit at the side of their seat for space preservation. I've done it with magazines and, while it made my seatmates irate, I had almost all the "comfort" I'd paid for!
But seriously, why stop there. If we're going to charge for all inconveniences, there should be a charge for talking on your cell after landing. Or having your laptop on the tray table making passengers have to wait for you to put it away before shimmying past. Or an extra charge for people not sitting on the aisle if they need to use the restroom more than once every 3 hours. Perfume charges, body odor charges, loud talker charges, overheard headphone charges, snoring charges, the list could be endless.
One flight was horrible from Chicago to Los Angeles. This very large woman boarded the plane and I turned to my mom and said, "You watch...she'll be sitting next to me." I was right. I had the middle seat; the woman had the window.
It was bad enough that she had to raise the armrest to fit into the seat while part of her thigh was on my seat; it was worse that she decided to knit the entire flight back home. Her flabby arms were constantly hitting me and she even knocked over my drink.
I wanted to turn to her and say, "Excuse YOU, would you please keep your fat to yourself?"
So yes, I believe that overweight people should be forced to purchase an extra seat. Airlines have those models at their gates to ensure that their passengers' carry-on luggage fits, why not have an actual economy class seat?
I do blame the airlines for narrowing the seats and pitch, not making the policy known or available until boarding. Like reschedule to a less packed flight.
When I was overweight I was invisible yet uncomfortably visible as I wedged my way down the aisle of the plane as a road warrior, acutely aware that I was shoved into that window seat, not daring to drink anything during that flight lest I need to get up and use the restroom and disturb the people in my row.
At this size, I'm also invisible. I'm so tired of being sat on as though I don't exist by people who spill over into my seat. I'm ok if it's just flesh-to-flesh but when someone deliberately raises the armrest and is literally SITTING ON ME I get a little irritated. Yes, people like this need to pay for two seats, and GET them. Airlines shouldn't collect the fare and then book the next seat anyway. That's wrong. People of size, like I used to be, should book, pay for, and actually get two seats.
Let's get real, airlines seats are actually SMALLER than they were 20 years ago. In that time, people have been getting longer and bigger, but the airlines keep ignoring demographics and continue to push as many seats as they can into a plane.
I personally always fly business-class, where there is no problem with seats whatsoever. But even not obese people, but anyone among us over 6"5 can not fit into a average economy seat without pushing his or her knees in the back of the poor fellow sitting in front of him.
There is only one solution and that is for airlinecompanies to acknowledge the fact that the population is increasing in size and weight and adjust the airplanes accordingly.
Or, they could treat passengers like actual people and increase the seat size (and ticket price) for everyone.
Obesity is a very complicated issue... one that is far to much so to make "flash" judgements or decisions.
With the population getting bigger and bigger, the airlines run the risk is shrinking their customer pool if they enact stringent "obesity rules". Also, the airlines don't help the matter any when they keep shrinking the seats and leg room.
My home airport, Nashville, is primarily a Southwest "hub". When I was bigger, I refused to fly them because of their obesity rule. It wasn't so much an issue of discrimination, but the arbitrary way the rule is enforced. I might fly to my destination on a single ticket, but be required to purchase a second ticket to get home. Many of us would have a problem coughing up the extra fare on the spur of the moment... possibly hundred of dollars.
I saw a couple of episode on "Airline" where Southwest staff determined whether a passenger of size had to purchase a second ticket by having them attempt to sit in an airplane seat with the arms "down". If they couldn't, a second seat had to be purchased.