COMMENTS
Actually, I was the one who asked about the Beijing tickets for the Olympics in August. This question is an easy one to answer - Airfarewatchdog should not only list travel deals to China, but AFWD should encourage travel to China as well, especially during this summer where China's accessibility to foreigners is greatest.
Without delving into long and overdrawn arguments regarding the Darfur / Tibet / Taiwan / Falun Gong / Japan issues that China faces, as well as the complaints workers in the U.S. have against companies such as Walmart and Google for their clandestine involvement with China's government, it is safe to say that there should be no general animosity towards our 'most favored' trading partner / UN permanent security council member / WTO member / surging economy / rising world superpower (without fear of a polarized world like back in the days of the USSR). Essential economic ties and political norms will usher thousands of travelers to China this summer, regardless of the jaded views that certain individuals in Western nations harbor.
The role of AFWD is that of a travel nature, whether for business, pleasure, or otherwise. Moral and social responsibility (which do not come into play with travel to China), are highly subjective personal conditions that make poor litmus tests for gauging the 'political correctness' of traveling to a nation so entirely different than ours (I'm a U.S. citizen) that it's easy to jump on a bandwagon of ignorance.
I'll conclude with a simple example. I traveled to Cuba last month due to the changing state of policies after Castro's resignation and I was delighted to find myself smokin' fat Cohiba's and sippin' sweet mojito's laying on the beach in Playa Ancon discussing memoirs of 'Che' - a direct contrast to the rather harsh fictional imaginations of those in the U.S. who were brought up to simply 'hate' Cuba for what it's worth. Let me ask you this: "Have you been to China and spent enough time there to accurately assess the human rights situation without media bias? Enough to appeal to a non-partisan travel site?"
I am opposed to the government of China as others are opposed to the US policies, which does not accurately say what we the people stand for. What I am opposed to is that it is the Chinese citizen working in these factories themselves, that are poisoning our children our animals, citizens of this country on PURPOSE. This is why I think that besides the political ramifications it is personal. I also think it is wrong what the greedy US contractors did with the Iraqi money which they stole from them. It makes me sick. So I say we should go to China as some Chinese factory workers are not like all Chinese, as most US citizens are also not like the greedy American Contractors who are above the law.
Katie
PS I never did believe the propaganda reports on Cuba.
I believe that if you're morally opposed to it, you should stand by your opinion and opposition, and not travel to China. I don't believe that your feelings should be imposed on the rest of us who are here to find good deals on travel.
The bandwagon of ignorance would like to control all of us. Only they know the truth!
I believe that we, the USA, should look at ourselves before we attempt to try to look at others or judge them. "Judge not lest you be judged" Travel to anywhere is a personel choice................
Many years ago, when living in the Bahamas, I witnessed some American celebrities castigating the Blacks (Bahamians, mostly) in the audience to "stand up and be heard", among other comments. They were shouted down, because the audience knew what their visitors didn't know, that there was a different social climate between races in the Bahamas than in the US. The point is: you can't always judge the entire social picture from the outside looking in. Buy a ticket to China/Russia/Cuba/Israel and SEE FOR YOURSELF. It makes for much better conversation than quoting what the (possibly biased) media tells you.
Wow...
1) Anyone that dismisses China's human rights issues has never talked to Tibetans that escaped. I have, and you would not believe the torture they put people through. Especially religious monks and nuns that refuse to denounce their beliefs. And that's just Tibet...only one thing on China's long list of "things".
2) Anyone that thinks hanging out in a designated toursit zone for a week or two provides some real understanding of a region is probably very arrogant or very self-absorbed. That's like going to Disney World and thinking you understand the life of Floridians from all classes and income levels.
3) Saying that a country can't be called on their human rights violations because our home country isn't perfect is a sure fire way to do nothing about anything. No, the better answer is to go after the biggest offenders AND also after your home country to clean up it's act. Throwing your hands up like that is just a way to say "my life isn't so bad so I'll sit in the sidelines and wag my finger at the people that want to make a difference".
I would bet that anyone turning a blind eye (or shoulder shrug) to human rights issues "over there" (China, Africa, US in or through other countries, etc.) has spent more time Googling for luxury hotels and cruise reviews than for human rights issues and volunteer efforts. I know I have in the past.
With all that said - I believe people should go to China. It's the only way ideas will spread and walls will come down. But people need to travel knowing exactly what's behind the curtain and not be so self-centered as to actively ignore the suffering of so many in the world.
WOW!!!
1. I've personally talked to Tibetans as well, and many of them disagree vehemently with the violent riots of their peers in China, Nepal, and India. Their increasing perchance for violence only self-degrades their respectability and respect around the world (especially since the Dalai Lama's 'middle ground' rests upon a platform of non-violent, Ghandi-copying movement).
More importantly, though, I've spoken with MANY native Han Chinese who were discriminated or shunned by Tibetans, especially with population relocations in the last few decades. The addition of Chinese government supported infrastructure has been immeasurable; compare this with the feudal system (at best) before the Dalai Lama fled in the middle of the last century.
2. In recent years, there has been an increased trend to expand travel outside of the 'tourist zone'; most travel agencies providing Olympic Games services even recommend leaving Beijing to see the 'real' China (whatever that means in a couple of days / weeks). We can never depend on our limited perceptions and isotopic experiences to permeate our beliefs about what is 'true' or 'false', but our senses are the best tools that we have. So, a week spent in China is one more week of experience to gauge China more accurately than those who lack all travel experiences.
3. Yes, we can mire in self-hypocrisy in realizing our limitations judging others. The USA is not perfect, but perfection remains in the means more than in the ends.
Here's the kicker: China does not include human rights in its constitution / CCP charter - thus, there are NO human rights violations in China because China does not have 'human rights' (sorry, no "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"). The only human rights violations China suffers are the ones outside nations / organizations decide to apply; those laws / policies are artificial at best and arbitrary at worst - depending on the current zeitgeist. It would be the equivalent of applying Chinese laws to the U.S. - we would be major violators of many 'laws', eh? Of course, let's not get into a petty debate about whose laws / policies are 'right' or 'wrong'. Granted, there are 'basic' human rights that all nations should provide for its citizens, but China meets those extremely basic requirements.
Logical posters should not intrude AFWD with politically-charged assumptions that have little or no merit on their own (purposeful poisoning of US food? Ignorant Americans searching for luxury over immersing experiences?). Remember, fallibility is still expected within debates and topics of controversy.
Whether or not we bicker and toil in online blogs and forums - the Olympics WILL be happening in China this summer. There WILL NOT be an international boycott of the games (opening ceremonies...eh). There MIGHT BE possible incidents regarding overzealous reporters or religious groups, but national security and an overwhelming sense of nationalism (felt overseas as well) will quickly suppress all fears / dangers / annoyances.
Regarding the parts of your posts directed at me...
Nothing in my post said that Tibetans should be resorting to violent protests.
Their frustration and anger is justified, but it would be best if they could use civil disobedience. Unfortunately, unlike the woman's rights, civil rights or anti-war movements in the US, the Chinese simply line up and shoot them or take them away to labor camps for the rest of their lives.
A very difficult situation, but non-violence in this case, especially now, would be horribly difficult, but still the best thing to do (in my personal opinion).
And as for the Chinese that are imported to the Tibetan areas...that is simply the Chinese government's way of overrunning a region and eradicating the indigenous culture to insert it's own. Same thing "we" did to the Native Americans with the Westward expansion - giving away land and resources to "our people" as we stole it with violence and broken deals. Sure...we brought roads and industry and we can see how much it "helped" the native Americans. Boy, they got a great deal. I wonder why they were so 'ungrateful'? <shurg>
But in short - My comments were more about the state of mind of people that don't really seem to care what goes on because it's "over there" or "not my problem". That point of view is a dead end, and typically compounded by believing that watching the evening news is being “informed”.
These things are like a cancer, and just as foolish to ignore as it is to ignore the cancer in your stomach because the brain is OK. It will spread and grow and eventually it will impact you and those close to you.
Not to be over dramatic, but when I see certain comments, it really highlights the state of mind that allowed the Nazis to do their "work" while people turned a blind eye. The US included, although we don't like to admit it when telling that story.
I'll get off the soap box now, and my comments are aimed at me as much as anyone else, because I haven't done nearly enough either.
As for AFWD - I didn't fault them in any way. In fact, I said people should go to China and if they really travel the region as an informed consumer, all the better. You, and others, wanted to know about the Olympics and travel...completely fair question and completely correct for AFWD to answer it.
What's not correct is defending China's (or the US or North Korea or some parts of Africa, etc.) human rights offenses and saying it's OK for people to suffer abuses that you would not want your loved ones to suffer. Or that we're not perfect so who are we to judge? Wagging a judging finger is not a good place to be and there's far too much of it growing in the US, but yelling at the thug beating up the old woman for her purse is completely appropriate and required.
WELL SAID KEVIN
KATIE
Poorly said, my friend Kev - first off, my point with the Tibetans committing violence to obtain their goals reduces themselves to nothing more than a violent riot crowd, to which all military groups and governments should defeat. Since their sole existence is founded by a non-violent belief, their behavior results in an oxymoron that juxtaposes identity with futility (in fighting the Chinese government). Adding to the spectacle is their likelihood to purposefully stir up negative media attention on China, especially during a rather positive world sporting event (Olympics). Add the possibility that the Dalai Lama is externally funding their campaign (whether in the monetary or idealogical sense), and the resulting equation is a formula for disaster. What the population does not hear are the murdered Chinese (ethnic Han) civilians caught in the perils of this Tibetan rebellion.
The 'cancer' and 'Nazi' analogies are logistically irrelevant due to their assumed positions of documented harm against 'innocent' populations (whereas the Tibetan incidents are definitely more harmful to the state of Chinese international reputation than to any specific internal CCP moniker). Let's stay on topic here.
On a more personal note, I'm assuming that you have never lived in China, and that your perceptions are based from trickling media reports unsubstantiated by reliable, non-Western eyewitnesses? If so, then I would like to share with the fact that I have lived in China for a large portion of my youth (including the Tiananmen Square 'incident' - not massacre), and that my family still lives there. I notice NO violent international human rights violations while I am there almost every other year, and I am constantly reminded that China needs to maintain her internal security rather than to risk the aftermath of a cultural fracture. China has only been able to improve economically this far in the last half a century - all due to her internal security measures meant to protect rather than to imprison, more focused on educational than punitive measures. I have a large amount of family living in many regions of China, and they all love and faithfully respect their homeland (even the ones who have seen the 'greener grass' of America / Europe).
My rebuttal is neither that of a vicious or ill-intentioned one - I am simply proving a point in defending a prominent nation as an overseas observer with a varied background - from a Western perspective, no less. To answer the original question - "is travel to China morally wrong?", I think we can both agree that the answer is "no" (albeit for radically different reasons). Morality is subjective and can sway with a person's cultural, political, and most of all religious background (China has no official religion...eh). 'Right' and 'wrong', though sometimes innately ascertained, are simply artificial terms assigned by humans to judge (your favorite word) the consequences of certain actions. With 2 equally convoluted variables in a single question - no wonder Browser (AFWD dog) can't make up his mind! A summary of Tibet issue argument follows...g'day mate!
Tibet Position Summary: I try to be as objective as possible in matters like these (I am an American citizen and live in the U.S. - so it would be easy for me to jump on the bandwagon and pour on more hatred against China), but I firmly believe that the popular notion that Tibet should 'gain' independence is ill-advised, due more to media subjectivity than logical rationale.
The truth of the matter is that Tibet (not an independent country, first off) was part of China before the United States was ever created. Besides the large historical aspect to the 'ownership' of Tibet by China, though, Tibet has provided China with a sufficient 'buffer' area against rather radical Islamic populations to the West. There is hardly a practical reason for China to govern the region - it is arid, barren, and otherwise useless in terms of economic commodities (although having 1/2 of Mt. Everest isn't a bad 'superlative').
People also forget that life during the Dalai Lamas' reign (I think the current one is the 13th Dalai Lama) was a poverty-stricken, feudal system at best. Do some research if you can, but life expectancy, healthy births, and GNP in the Tibet region have ALL RISEN since modern Chinese governance. Then again, the Dalai Lama at one point had correspondence with Hitler when his exploration teams reached Tibet, but that's way besides the point.
Actually, the greatest damage done to the Tibetan independence movement was caused by Tibetans themselves, by the ironic violence that these 'non-violent' Buddhist-loving populous have conducted over the past few weeks. Many of the news agencies are viewing the matter with a pervasive bias, and few photos actually depict Chinese soldiers conducting 'offensive' assaults rather than simply 'defensive' riot maneuvers to protect themselves and regulate peace. Most of the photos you have been seeing online and in the news detail Nepalese (blue camo uniforms) and Indian police forces, and Chinese medical crews, many of whom wear military uniforms, have been misleadingly shown as well.
I'm not arguing for any sort of military action against Tibet. All I'm saying is that there are definitely 2 sides to the story here, and I hate to be the one that has to balance it in favor of China's government. Anyways, the boycotting the Olympics would be highly impractical. What would happen? China doesn't suffer from an athletic boycott, but gets pissed as a result at those countries and then shuts off economic trade with them economically (yes, the Chinese government has that ability). It would be most likely a lose-lose situation for all countries involved, and trade with China is at an all time high. Let's be PRACTICAL here, and not simply dream in ideological PRINCIPLE.
By the way, I'm going to the Olympics in August, and I expect it to be an extremely fun international endeavor - the quintessential ATHLETIC (and not political) event in this year. I will try to visit Tibet as well, if the rioting is down (notice the replacement of the implicative word 'violence' or 'suppression'), as I'd like to form my own opinions about the situation through my own perspective without external interpretation.
I almost forgot to state that I am in no way looking for any type of harsh or drawn-out bitter argument over this topic. I obviously have a different opinion (and not fact) than you, and I would appreciate any sort of different thinking than my own on this topic.
In any case, here's the deal - the recent riots in the Tibet province are entirely instigated by the Tibetan dissidents, many of whom I'm not sure are acting entirely on their own (some organization, possibly externally involved). Western nations feeding the fire will not ease any tension already felt by the Chinese government. In fact, the best way to save Tibetan lives at this point would be NOT to pressure or criticize (or boycott) China. China doesn't really respond well to negative criticism. Let's see, the last example I can give you is the Tienanmen incident (not a 'massacre', but let's stay on topic) in 1989, and hopefully that doesn't happen in Lhasa.
China did in fact receive the Olympic bid under the current conditions that are in place, yet with an absolve to improve the 'human rights' factor as the time line draws closer. So far, China has been partially successful in meeting that resolution, although recent punctuated incidents of Falun Gong (let's not even go into that; I don't think that it's appropriate for China, you probably do, and so on and so forth) have cast a rather negative cloud over the nations progress. But I assure you, my friends and families all concur that life in China is hardly 'miserable'. In fact, many of the populous honestly like the current administration (OK, they may not have seen the proverbial 'greener grass', but every nation has its ups and downs - including the current U.S. economy).
Let's not forget now that China does not recognize human rights as a natural law, and that there are few provisions set in the government's constitution for these cases. I often get asked how I can like China and the U.S. at the same time, especially when "China violates human rights". My response is simple: "Humans don't have rights in China." Human rights are viewed as something other than that which is simply thought up by humans, even if a majority of people believe in basic human treatment (since majorities don't really work in a Communist system). It would be like me criticizing someone for not taking their shoes off when entering THEIR house, yet that person's culture might find it perfectly acceptable for them. So the whole frame of comparing China to the rest of the world is innately faulty due to the fact that China doesn't abide by any other nation's system, especially not that of the U.S.
Besides the fact that boycotting the Olympics would be useless (and detrimental) to international and trade relations, it seems to me that we are all more worried about China's power in the world. Perhaps the notion of a polarized world divided by 2 superpowers scares you? Fear not - some of the greatest technological, militaristic, and economic progress occurred during the U.S.-Soviet standoff. Of course, I'm not suggesting that America's current relationship with China turns sour...
In any case, what won't happen is that China changes her mind from a bunch of young adults protesting in front of her embassies and consulates worldwide - sorry, but protesters remind China of slogan and poster-carrying hipsters without real jobs. Doing so might just result in a few arrests and confiscated property, even in the "U.S. & A." (Borat). Of course, that's just my opinion - I tend to visit a country with an optimistic lens to find out for myself what's happening locally (trust me, Cuba is not as bad as the media portrays - sippin' mojito's and smokin' fat Chohiba's discussing 'Che' is the way to go).
This is what's going to happen in the next few months: China maintains her internal security by arresting all provoking rioters in the Tibetan province, restores order, cleans up Beijing some more, welcomes all the happy international guests / athletes / delegations, everyone has a good time, better networking relationships developed with international companies, all smiles on the return flights. Actually, some lame reporter will probably try to do something stupid, as well a religious group ignorant enough to bring in bibles or a hippie international organization (i.e. Amnesty International) and China's 'Zero Tolerance Policy" (don't you like how it sounds?) will have to come into play. We'll see. If I'm wrong, I'll owe you an apology. Remind me after the Olympics.
Michael you just do not see the seriousness of China and it is useless to talk about this anymore. I will not buy anything Made in China anymore. For several reasons that are obvious, including tainted products, and also I will still buy Made in USA because I believe to support the small handful that have not moved to some third world country for greed. Also any country that does not have any human rights should not get my money. Unfortunately, the athletic event will be there. As far as the Bible's go Michael that is just tyranny. You talk about not making the government of China mad and threatened, well their threats of Bibles, etc. is just plain wrong. The athletes are not there to visit China. It would be a different story otherwise. And also Michael you are so angry. I agree with Kevin wholeheartedly and you do not have to have lived in China to know not to turn a blind eye to the atrocities against humanity anywhere.
Geez, what's with all the personal attacks - I thought this was a 'friendly travel discussion'? And now you're throwing in the 'bible'? Oops, I forgot to mention, China has no official religion (besides nationalism) and one should take care not to try to bring in bibles to China.
Could it be, Katie-Kate, that I'm just 'plain right'? Haha, lay off the moonshine...
HAHAHA!!! Sorry, I can't seem to stop laughing...guess it must be my "anger"...lol! You should put down your e-mail address, Katherine, and I'll make sure to send you a postcard (sans the "poison").
Hahaha...
THIS IS A FRIENDLY POST MICHAEL. AND PLEASE DO SEND ME A POSTCARD. LOL. NO MOONSHINE HERE. AND PLEASE HAVE FUN IN CHINA THIS SUMMER. HONESTLY EVERYONE SHOULD HAVE A GREAT TIME. YEA I WOULD GO TO CHINA AND NOT WITH A BIBLE EITHER. IT WAS JUST THAT THE ATHLETES SHOULD HAVE THE CHOICE AS THEY ARE NOT GOING AS TOURISTS BUT AS REPRESENTATIVES OF THEIR COUNTRIES. KATEY1@GMAIL.COM
I think AFWD should continue to post airfair deals from Kathmandu to Kalamazoo, and beyond. Yes, there are horrible human rights atrocities occuring in China, Darfur, Tibet and all over the world. But, AFWD is not a political company, they provide a service. If you feel so strong about a particular country, don't go. Also, take into account that many people travel to these countries because that is their home and they want to visit with family...without breaking the bank!
Katie--
In reference to your comment about Made in China vs Made in USA labels: Made in the US does not necessarily mean made with fair wages in the continental US. There are plenty of US territories (ex: American Samoa) with very **VERY** cheap labor that produce a lot of our US "made" products because of their lax laws and poor standards. And it is perfectly legal to use the MADE IN THE USA label. Also, contrary to what you may believe, sweat shops do exist in the good 'ol USA. Don't be deceived.
